The Jack Miller Archive

[00:13:16] And then the third guy was Jack Miller. And so I met Jack as a professor and had him for preaching coach. But he took an interest in several of us particularly those who had a kind of L'Abri background. [18.8]
[00:13:36] He was intrigued by the L'Abri model of Christian discipleship and so on and so we often were over in his home just informally for discussions and getting to know each other. [20.0]
[00:13:58] He was a brilliant man. He had actually recently been in a conservative think tank in California. But he left that for a bunch of reasons and was called to Westminster and this was way before a lot of the changes that people know about him had occurred. Nevertheless he was still the most engaging and lively professor and already beginning a little bit to be critical of the classic seminary model although he taught within it and fit in it pretty well. He was getting his PhD at the time in California. His doctoral dissertation was on James Fenimore Cooper. And Jack was very very conversant with literature, particularly American literature, but world literature as well. So he taught evening courses in literature that included not just students, but the community, the wider community. So that's a subject in itself you've probably come across. Yeah. [1:18.4]
[00:15:18] The thesis was that the journey which began as a Christian motif obviously back in the Middle Ages and then later with people like Bunyan and so forth became secularized in the 18th and 19th centuries with people like Melville and others. [24.9]
[00:15:43] And so we just had this incredible series of lectures in literature. That's just to say something about the breadth of his intellect. He was widely read, he was, as we say today in interdisciplinary studies. After three years of seminary, including the fact that he did my marriage, he presided over my marriage in 1968 in Norfolk, Connecticut, and that's the whole story. [41.3]
[00:16:26] We just became very close. And after I graduated from seminary, I wasn't sure what to do. I decided to postpone music school and work in the church. And one of the main reasons for that is that theologically I'd become convinced at Westminster of the critical importance of the church. At L'Abri we didn't get that in the same way. But when I came to Westminster the role of the church was very very crucial. [37.8]
[00:17:05] And second, Jack had asked a number of us to be interns in a very independent church that he took over for a while called Mechanicsville Chapel. And it was under his leadership that many of us kind of cut our teeth in practical ministry. So he'd have us preach and lead Bible study and do evangelistic outreach kinds of things. [34.1]
[00:17:40] And it was just terrific hands on practice that complemented all of the theory and all the good theology we were getting in the classroom. So even though this was before his spiritual revolution he had a real sense of reaching people, of ministering to them, of training young men in the art of pastoral care and preaching and so forth. [36.6]
[00:18:17] So then when I, when we graduated we just weren't sure which direction to take and I worked with my hands for a summer in taking care of a forest up in north western Connecticut. [18.4]
[00:18:36] And then Jack called and had concocted this idea with Ed Clowney and some others of establishing a kind of beachhead L'Abri like ministry in a little town outside of Mechanicsville called New Hope, which was and still is to some extent, thought it is much more commercial now, an artsy community: it has art galleries and all kinds of alternative people. [36.8]
[00:19:13] This is you know the 60s and there was a lot of kind of hippies and just people who would have been caricature of what people think of the 60s living in this place. [14.8]
[00:19:29] And so I officially I became a home missionary for the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and my assignment was to live in New Hope and reach out to the local community. Lots to tell there. I don't know if you found anything in the archives. But it began with a lot of enthusiasm. We, my way of putting it, is that Jack way over estimated our gifts and he figured that you know because of our background we were just naturals to reproduce the kind of ministry that L'Abri had. [47.8]
[00:20:17] And while it didn't happen. After nearly a year, we realized that we were not you know turning that town upside down as he had hoped. [15.3]
[00:20:34] There were lots of good things that happened. We had a lecture series in a local art gallery which was well attended. We had Bible study; a lot of counseling. [10.7]
[00:20:48] We had our first child with us which was you know a real challenge for us. We loved having children but combining that with ministry was hard. And then it was a faith based ministry in the classic sense that we prayed our money and food. There was no organization behind us. There was no paycheck. And you know this worked well at L'Abri. But there was a whole different structure behind that and reasons for that and so forth. [41.0]
[00:21:29] And we weren't the Schaefer's. So the money was really really thin and my my poor parents who aren't, who weren't believers wondered you know what we were doing was going to feed our grandchild. [15.8]
[00:21:47] And then, I don't know if this comes out of the archives. We had an unfortunate misunderstanding. Jack somehow got the idea that I was encroaching on his ministry at Mechanicsville. And the last thing I was doing, I think we'd had some effect on people, but there was no encroachment. [27.8]
[00:22:16] So he got kind of angry at us and sent us to get counseling which I pretty much, we did. But I deeply resented it because it is a false accusation. For one reason or another, including that, the ministry just came to a grinding halt. [18.4]
[00:22:35] And I became a school teacher for eight years which was very very fulfilling and just what I should have been doing. Had our second child. [9.4]
[00:22:46] And during that time in the 70s, as I was a school teacher in Connecticut that Jack had his spiritual revolution. So we weren't actually close to him during that time and I only found out about it secondhand and later. [20.0]
[00:23:07] Make a long story short when we moved back to America from a 10 year ministry in France as a seminary professor, Jack and Rosemary were incredibly sweet to us and had us right over in their home and Jack wrote me a long letter of apology. [18.5]
[00:23:27] And he'd come to the conclusion that he had been wrong and I, that was very sweet, and very welcome, because I did feel like I'd been injured. [11.4]
[00:23:39] So we ended up really good friends and did a lot together again. I had him speak at different conferences that I was heading, and back in their home a lot. [12.3]
[00:23:51] And then the dear man as you know died died of cancer. I mean you're welcome to ask me about his adoption years and his ministry in Sonship. I actually don't know a lot about it. Obviously it represented a kind of real revolution. And he had had this remarkable renewal in his own life. But it was as I said not when we were around or abroad actually for most of that and I just praise the Lord for what he was able to do. [45.8]
[00:24:39] He eventually as you know left teaching seminary. I mean seminary teaching just wasn't his thing. He did it as best as a brilliant man could, but his heart was not in it. His heart was in taking groups down to you know Temple University or to Wall Street and evangelizing people on the street. [24.2]
[00:25:03] And he was really good at that. And he helped me learn how to do that as well. So he eventually left that and then and his church left the OPC; that's a controversial subject. They left the OPC and went into the PCA, and developed a network known as the New Life Churches. [23.6]
[00:25:29] And then along came World Harvest which was a marvelously fresh mission with a marvelously fresh approach to mission based in part on Rose Marie and Jack's love for Ireland and Spain where they've gone and done a lot of evangelism and then consolidated that and the mission... [26.7]
[00:25:56] The mission is a vital one today and it's changed its name to Serge, but it is a great, really live and dynamic mission. So that's the cliff notes of my Jack Miller story. I can give you lots of details, but maybe you should ask questions. [25.8]
[13:05.7]

Bill Edgar Interview

More Interview

[00:13:16] And then the third guy was Jack Miller. And so I met Jack as a professor and had him for preaching coach. But he took an interest in several of us particularly those who had a kind of L'Abri background. [18.8]
[00:13:36] He was intrigued by the L'Abri model of Christian discipleship and so on and so we often were over in his home just informally for discussions and getting to know each other. [20.0]
[00:13:58] He was a brilliant man. He had actually recently been in a conservative think tank in California. But he left that for a bunch of reasons and was called to Westminster and this was way before a lot of the changes that people know about him had occurred. Nevertheless he was still the most engaging and lively professor and already beginning a little bit to be critical of the classic seminary model although he taught within it and fit in it pretty well. He was getting his PhD at the time in California. His doctoral dissertation was on James Fenimore Cooper. And Jack was very very conversant with literature, particularly American literature, but world literature as well. So he taught evening courses in literature that included not just students, but the community, the wider community. So that's a subject in itself you've probably come across. Yeah. [1:18.4]
[00:15:18] The thesis was that the journey which began as a Christian motif obviously back in the Middle Ages and then later with people like Bunyan and so forth became secularized in the 18th and 19th centuries with people like Melville and others. [24.9]
[00:15:43] And so we just had this incredible series of lectures in literature. That's just to say something about the breadth of his intellect. He was widely read, he was, as we say today in interdisciplinary studies. After three years of seminary, including the fact that he did my marriage, he presided over my marriage in 1968 in Norfolk, Connecticut, and that's the whole story. [41.3]
[00:16:26] We just became very close. And after I graduated from seminary, I wasn't sure what to do. I decided to postpone music school and work in the church. And one of the main reasons for that is that theologically I'd become convinced at Westminster of the critical importance of the church. At L'Abri we didn't get that in the same way. But when I came to Westminster the role of the church was very very crucial. [37.8]
[00:17:05] And second, Jack had asked a number of us to be interns in a very independent church that he took over for a while called Mechanicsville Chapel. And it was under his leadership that many of us kind of cut our teeth in practical ministry. So he'd have us preach and lead Bible study and do evangelistic outreach kinds of things. [34.1]
[00:17:40] And it was just terrific hands on practice that complemented all of the theory and all the good theology we were getting in the classroom. So even though this was before his spiritual revolution he had a real sense of reaching people, of ministering to them, of training young men in the art of pastoral care and preaching and so forth. [36.6]
[00:18:17] So then when I, when we graduated we just weren't sure which direction to take and I worked with my hands for a summer in taking care of a forest up in north western Connecticut. [18.4]
[00:18:36] And then Jack called and had concocted this idea with Ed Clowney and some others of establishing a kind of beachhead L'Abri like ministry in a little town outside of Mechanicsville called New Hope, which was and still is to some extent, thought it is much more commercial now, an artsy community: it has art galleries and all kinds of alternative people. [36.8]
[00:19:13] This is you know the 60s and there was a lot of kind of hippies and just people who would have been caricature of what people think of the 60s living in this place. [14.8]
[00:19:29] And so I officially I became a home missionary for the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and my assignment was to live in New Hope and reach out to the local community. Lots to tell there. I don't know if you found anything in the archives. But it began with a lot of enthusiasm. We, my way of putting it, is that Jack way over estimated our gifts and he figured that you know because of our background we were just naturals to reproduce the kind of ministry that L'Abri had. [47.8]
[00:20:17] And while it didn't happen. After nearly a year, we realized that we were not you know turning that town upside down as he had hoped. [15.3]
[00:20:34] There were lots of good things that happened. We had a lecture series in a local art gallery which was well attended. We had Bible study; a lot of counseling. [10.7]
[00:20:48] We had our first child with us which was you know a real challenge for us. We loved having children but combining that with ministry was hard. And then it was a faith based ministry in the classic sense that we prayed our money and food. There was no organization behind us. There was no paycheck. And you know this worked well at L'Abri. But there was a whole different structure behind that and reasons for that and so forth. [41.0]
[00:21:29] And we weren't the Schaefer's. So the money was really really thin and my my poor parents who aren't, who weren't believers wondered you know what we were doing was going to feed our grandchild. [15.8]
[00:21:47] And then, I don't know if this comes out of the archives. We had an unfortunate misunderstanding. Jack somehow got the idea that I was encroaching on his ministry at Mechanicsville. And the last thing I was doing, I think we'd had some effect on people, but there was no encroachment. [27.8]
[00:22:16] So he got kind of angry at us and sent us to get counseling which I pretty much, we did. But I deeply resented it because it is a false accusation. For one reason or another, including that, the ministry just came to a grinding halt. [18.4]
[00:22:35] And I became a school teacher for eight years which was very very fulfilling and just what I should have been doing. Had our second child. [9.4]
[00:22:46] And during that time in the 70s, as I was a school teacher in Connecticut that Jack had his spiritual revolution. So we weren't actually close to him during that time and I only found out about it secondhand and later. [20.0]
[00:23:07] Make a long story short when we moved back to America from a 10 year ministry in France as a seminary professor, Jack and Rosemary were incredibly sweet to us and had us right over in their home and Jack wrote me a long letter of apology. [18.5]
[00:23:27] And he'd come to the conclusion that he had been wrong and I, that was very sweet, and very welcome, because I did feel like I'd been injured. [11.4]
[00:23:39] So we ended up really good friends and did a lot together again. I had him speak at different conferences that I was heading, and back in their home a lot. [12.3]
[00:23:51] And then the dear man as you know died died of cancer. I mean you're welcome to ask me about his adoption years and his ministry in Sonship. I actually don't know a lot about it. Obviously it represented a kind of real revolution. And he had had this remarkable renewal in his own life. But it was as I said not when we were around or abroad actually for most of that and I just praise the Lord for what he was able to do. [45.8]
[00:24:39] He eventually as you know left teaching seminary. I mean seminary teaching just wasn't his thing. He did it as best as a brilliant man could, but his heart was not in it. His heart was in taking groups down to you know Temple University or to Wall Street and evangelizing people on the street. [24.2]
[00:25:03] And he was really good at that. And he helped me learn how to do that as well. So he eventually left that and then and his church left the OPC; that's a controversial subject. They left the OPC and went into the PCA, and developed a network known as the New Life Churches. [23.6]
[00:25:29] And then along came World Harvest which was a marvelously fresh mission with a marvelously fresh approach to mission based in part on Rose Marie and Jack's love for Ireland and Spain where they've gone and done a lot of evangelism and then consolidated that and the mission... [26.7]
[00:25:56] The mission is a vital one today and it's changed its name to Serge, but it is a great, really live and dynamic mission. So that's the cliff notes of my Jack Miller story. I can give you lots of details, but maybe you should ask questions. [25.8]
[13:05.7]

Mike: [00:49:54] Yeah. So back in you know thank you for telling me about the painful experience that you had. That's really really helpful. And also about his [Jack's] repentance. [11.2]
[00:50:06] I don't know if you want to go into that a little bit more. I mean it's pretty, it sounds like, why would he have thought that you guys were encroaching, or did he say why he thought you guys were encroaching on what they were doing at Mechanicsville? [18.5]
Bill Edgar: [00:50:26] Actually no, this is another part of it. I mean I don't want to go too deeply into it, but it's one of the more dark parts of his life. He sent a friend who was another minister to kind of investigate and lay the accusations down. [16.0]
Bill Edgar: [00:50:42] And so you know I I was caught completely off guard and denied all of it because none of it was true. [8.3]
Bill Edgar: [00:50:52] What I think might have led him to think that is: a) Our relative ineffectiveness in New Hope. You know we were not turning the town upside down as he had thought. And B) we had very warm and cordial relations with some of the people at Mechanicsville Chapel. Some of them being our supporters. And the last thing on my mind was sheep stealing. I don't know what it would have even looked like because we were just members of the church. But I think he was worried that maybe we were investing too much time with the people of Mechanicsville, and not enough time on the front lines of New Hope. [52.4]
Bill Edgar: [00:51:44] And I'm sure that's right because I'm just not a frontline kind of person. You know I'm not like Jack and I don't have his boldness. And so that's the way he interpreted I think those events. [16.7]
Mike: [00:52:03] Bill Viss mentioned (I had a three or four hour interview with him). He mentioned that Jack would go and do street preaching in New Hope. Was he helpful to you guys while you were doing that, or was that before you guys got there? [10.7]
Bill Edgar: [00:52:14] It was, some of it anyway was during the time we were there and so he'd bring me along. [12.3]
[00:52:28] And it was fascinating. I remember once we went to the home of a witch and he asked me to give my testimony. And I was a little reluctant. I thought what's this going to help a witch. But you know, I said something or other. And he, so we worked on this lady. And so yeah that was he did this. He did come along but he had a very very busy life and I wasn't always on his radar screen. [34.1]
[00:53:04] And you know he was teaching at seminary, he was the pastor of Mechanicsville, he had all kinds of writing projects, and you know, yeah, he would come out occasionally, and I would join him, but whether he had gone a lot before. [17.4]
[00:53:23] I don't know how I'd imagined he had, but I honestly don't know. I don't know why he picked New Hope except that it was near Mechanicsville and famous as an artsy place and he figured I was an artsy kind of guy. [13.6]
Mike: [00:53:38] So it was you, and Dick Keyes, is that right? [3.3]
Bill Edgar: [00:53:43] Yeah, we were all interns at Mechanicsville. And he went on after graduation to work at L'Abri which he has done all his life. [9.8]
Mike: [00:53:53] Right. They had the same experience with Jack. He did he had that same negative experience with it. [6.0]
Bill Edgar: [00:54:00] I don't know. I had no idea. You should probably talk to him. OK. OK. I doubt it because remember it was because the negative experience was because we were working you know on the same project together and I don't think Dick every did that. [16.5]
[00:54:16] We were all interns at Mechanicsville and it was a great learning experience. I don't think there was anything negative from that. [6.7]
Mike: [00:54:23] OK. OK. And then so we get to see that letter that he wrote to you. Would you have that would you be willing to share that or is it too personal. [12.0]
Bill Edgar: [00:54:35] Yeah I have that, but I would not be willing to share it. It's much too personal. [6.2]
[00:54:42] OK. Is there anything out of that that you would add? You felt like he had sufficiently repented for the depth... That's been one of my questions I've asked... I've asked people, because Jack talked about repentance so much. Had Jack sinned against you all. And did he repent? [22.5]
[00:55:05] You know because sometimes, you know in my own life I'll beat people to the punch in repentance because I want to be in control of repentance and not really get to the heart of it. So I guess maybe you sounded like that was sufficient for you at the time? [18.7]
[00:55:24] Oh it was it was real. And more than anyone could ask for. So it was sincere and well articulate and yeah, it tied the knot, you know, and it was wonderful. [17.7]
[5:48.5]

Mike: [01:23:02] How would you assess Jack's impact on the church if you had to. And what would you say about him today that in your book or how would you assess this ongoing impact on the church today. [14.9]
[01:23:17] You know he is. [1.1]
Bill Edgar: [01:23:19] Let me put it this way. Jacques Deridas, who was famous for deconstruction, was once asked later in his life, "Has deconstruction ... Is it still alive? Or is it still a hot topic? And he said, "No, but it's all over the place." In other words, Jack's impact, except for people like you and me and a few other insiders, is probably not under his name, under his banner, under even his publications though those are great. It it's more in the people that he affected and the movements that came out of that. And just the inspiration to continue to center on the gospel despite all the temptations to moralism that are around him. I think he had a great impact in that in that way. The you know just in our little world we've had PhD students do their dissertations on adoption and its technical stuff, and its not a lot about Jack Miller. But had he not I think raised that banner it would have remained a neglected doctrine. So I think that's probably the way I see it. If you ask people who were in the New Life churches that they owe it to direct influence and his spirit is still alive. I'm sure that's true. But for me he was appointed you know to quote "After for such a time as this." I think Shaeffer was the same. There are voices who are prophetic at the time and and their stuff is a bit dated now. Shaffer's more than Jack I guess but their impact is palpable. It's indirect. [2:27.1]
[2:43.7]